10 years ago
Austria's well know paragliding spot, Gerlitzen has been a center of acro paragliding since the birth of the sport. Some of the best acro pilots, like Xandi Meschu, Pal Takats or Marving Ogger and many others have been training here in the safe environment what the Ossiache See offers. The site grew as our sport did in the last ten years, witnessing more and more pilots wanting to train acrobatics over water. Most of the pilots are from Austria, Germany or the neighboring countries, but foreign pilots are present from the early days, and they are coming from all over Europe and as far as North America, New Zealand or Columbia. This mixture has formed into a nice and friendly international community of acro pilots.
In the last few years the number of water landings have been increased significantly, giving a lot of work to the lakes Water Rescue team. The local authorities weren't so happy about the water landings, and were already asking the local pilots for a solution to lower the number of water landings. Unfortunatly in July a young Austrian pilot killed himself while doing acro, and crashed into the lake in front of the swimmers. This was the first fatal acro accident in Gerlitzen, and it was obvious that the authorities will have a reaction to this... and they had a very bad reaction.
About a week after the accident they caught a Korean pilot after a water landing and fined him for 320 euro. Two days later they caught a Bulgarian pilot, Veso for landing in the camp site, also 300 euro. Few days has passed, and two French pilots have been caught and fined for 300 euro again! The reason was always the absence of valid flight documents, but all these pilots had valid national licenses from their own countries, IPPI cards, third party liability insurances. The police officers were not so respectful with pilots, disrespecting their equipment, scaring them to pay by showing the handcuffs, confiscate the glider, or having very intolerant comments on them. The police have been seen since checking documents of pilots at the landing field.
Situation and facts:
Austrian law only allows paragliding flights with valid Austrian, German or Swiss licence, and a flightbook on board!
Many of us are flying in Austria for 10 years, and never heard of this rule, nor never seen any penalties payed for this reason. This was never announced, nor any warning before the police has started to penalize foreigners!
The Austrian Aeroclub (http://www.aeroclub.at/) has a website only in German language, with very limited information. No English information, and nothing about the fact that foreigners are illegal to fly in Austria.
To obtain an Austrian license, you have two options:
1. Do a course with a flight school, which means you have to do a (shortend) paragliding course with a written exam in German language and a flight test.
2. Submit your national documents, and have them converted into an Austrian licence. This has no precedence!
There is no way to get a visitor pilots license or anything similar.
Read more information from Benedikt Skok.
According to the FAI website, IPPI card is accepted in Austria. Very interestingly the page has been updated yesterday (August 8, 2013), and now it still can be understood as they accept IPPI cards, it states that new rules will come out in October 2013. For curiosity, here is the text from before the change.
Landing rules have been changed in the last days. Pilots have to land 50 meters away from the road. Who know the places, can tell that this is dangerous in strong wind, because of rotor from the trees.
It is not allowed to land in the main camping and beach (strandbad). Anyone who lands there will be handed over to the police, and probably pay a fine. The owners never liked paragliders landing there, not even in emergency situations. We need to respect their private property, so please not land there in any circumstances. See their notes (only in german).
There is no offical water rescue. There is a rescue team on the lake, who are all volunteers, and their job would not be to fish out paraglider pilots. The boat is not even on the lake all the times, or maybe on the other end, and than it takes longer time from them to arrive. To honor their job, one can buy a sticker for 20EUR, which is a donation for the rescue team, and not a payment for a service which unfortunately most pilots seem to think it is!
There is no official acro flight box.
General comment on the situation:
Pulling out a rule in the middle of the season and start penalizing the pilots is not a fair act. One reason behind the control is to lower the number of water landings, but asking for a valid local license only makes the foreign pilots to pack up and leave the site. A 300 euro fine can break a young acro pilot's summer budget, one can't fly with a nice mindset, and very frustrating to change holiday plans unexpectedly. Just an example, a group of about 10 foreign pilots showed up and bought their season card (156 euro) and water rescue donation stickers (20 euro each), but were never told about the need of Austria license to fly legally. They left after a few days and two of them got fined (2 x 300euro). This was an expensive three day vacation!
On the other hand, the pilots who have local licenses are listed by the police and they are allowed to fly. This has a bad affect on the community.
Hopefully the situation will clear up, and the new rules will be announced before the next season.
This is a list of internation pilots who been affected by this situation. Mayority of these pilots have left already, or will leave in the next couple of days or canceled their trips, because of this situation.
Alex Nelubow, France
Arnold Vandoorne, Belguim
Atanas Ovcharov, Bulgaria
Attila Pethe, Hungary
Bán Zoltán, Hungary
Caroline Lewis, United States of America
Craig Taylor, New Zealand
Csaba Virág, Hungary
Damaris Lillo, Colombia
Dénes Kovács, Hungary
Emil Tzolof, Bulgaria
Éva Bárhoff, Hungary
Fabien Curvo, France
Guillaume Simon, France
Harvith Fabian Lizcano, Columbia
Ivan Kalibatzev, Bulgaria
Ivan Vrstosek, Serbia
Jeff Chipaux, France
Marika Pechackova, Czech Republic
Maxime Neubrand, France
Maxime Poirette, France
Maxime Renger, France
Nathalie Reocreux, France
Norbert Biri, Hungary
Nova Dasalla, United States of America
Petar Loncar, Serbia
Radek Hrabkovsky, Czech Republic
Sebastien Kassubek, France
Simon Weger, Italy
Slavek Tmej, Czech Republic
Stephen Gichuki, France
Szilárd Berkei, Hungary
Szilárd Farkas, Hungary
Tamás Székely, Hungary
Veselin Ovcharov, Bulgaria
Yassine Ndoubela, France
Yohann Soo, France
Yungak Hwang, South Korea
Zoltán Molnár, Hungary
+5 more French pilots
If you are also effected by this situation and want to be presented in this list, please let us know in a comment.
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There was already conversation on this in the Gerlitzen expenses topic. Read the comments there, but leave your new comments on this article.
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This article was written by Szilárd Farkas (Lupus) and other international pilots. The information within the article may not be correct, and the author doesn't take any responsibility about it's correctness, but these are the facts and happenings we witnessed or heard of.
Latest Comments
Is it the same situation on other sites in Austria, like Stubai Valley?
@Seabirdlv
I think if you keep out of the water and keep your head low you will be fine.
I flew there just after all the trouble went down, and it was relaxed.
I would go if I was you. I highly doubt that you will have any trouble.
Enjoy !
Hey, guys are there any updates for the 2016 season? I would love to go, but after reading all this I am not sure what to think.
Any updates would be appreciated!
Thanks
Ok Lupus, thank you for the answer.
i hope the local authorities keep their word to !
BR
Unfortunately it's still not legal for foreigners, but the local authorities told that they will not bug foreigners this year. All we can do is hope they keep their word. The change in the law has been halted at the Ministry level.
Hello,
I was in Gerlitzen last years during the "Nightmare".
What's happen today about Gerlitzen, have some news ?
Somebody know if it's possible to fly in this spot when you don't have the austrian flying licence ?
Or the situation is still lock for the stranger ?
BR Jonas
Looks like there is some progress on all fronts. Keep up the good work folks - http://kaernten.orf.at/news/stories/2604638/
Cheers
Hi there, to whom it may concern:
with approval of the webmaster I signed up in this forum. I am an Austrian journalist (a local from Ossiacher See) and I am researching the problems with the licenses and the fining of pilots last summer around Gerlitzen/Ossiacher See. I have spoken with a lot of people already - tourism board, hotelowners, neighbours of the landing sites and also the police. Everybody - naturally - has his own point of view. My article for the Austrian public broadcaster ORF should contain all the facts and hopefully will motivate authority to find a suitable solution for everybody. Best before next season. May I kindly ask you: If you had personal experiences and/or incidents during your stay in Carinthia, would you send me an email with a short statement? I have read the statements in this forum already but I would like to quote parts of them. This I cannot do without your permission (I will not use your real names of course!!). So please, send me a few lines what the problem was, if you have been informed about the law or not etc. Please give your nationality and how long or often you used to come to the Gerlitzen and if you would come in future again or not. This would help a lot, thank you so much! This is my email: petra.haas@orf.at
Hi, Lupus, your second paragraph is not really correct: Stephan Wirgler, who is a representativ of the Austrian Aeroclub (which is our national federation) reacted on saturday, 2013/08/10 This was one day after you wrote this article. So, I don´t exactly know what Stephan will do, but from knowing him personally, I promise he will take these things seriously.
This issue will probably be put on a higher level in Sweden too.
Here come a cut from the official forum for Swedish PG club:
SSFFs Chairman Pär Jönsson has serious doubts about Austria's unilateral decision that seems to clash with current EU law on free movement within the EU where similar professional licenses / permissions should be respected without prejudice in Europe.
Paragliding Association and Aerospace Sports Office will now contact the National Sports Confederation lawyers and even the EU representation office / Embassy in Stockholm in order to sort out what applies to Swedish pilots who want to fly in Austria ahead.
//Tomas
Hello everybody,
I had a talk to Walter Kepplinger from http://www.freiflieger-magazin.at (FFM). He is lawyer who itself is a paraglider. He points the grievances out since years.
I translated his answer:
Foreign pilots need an Austrian license in Austria. A IPPI card does not entitle to fly in Austria in connection with a foreign license. A flight logbook is mandatory only for tandem and motorized glider. Non-motorized solo pilots do not need a logbook.
The aviation act was indeed already changed, but foreign licenses are only valid in Austria if the relevant regulations are adjusted and then the authority (ÖAeC) has to accept certain foreign licenses. Arrangements between Germany, Switzerland and Austria are legally invalid. The Ministry, ÖAeC and DHV know this for long.
Our work for years with the FFM will result in our desired success (perhaps this year). Until then, the problem is hushed up on the outside. That it now becomes a problem I've seen before. Therefore I warned for years to finally solve this.
The pilots involved there can thank the associations (OeAC, DHV and FAI) which propagate false information for years and mislead the pilots. Sgnificantly involved was Karl Slezak (DHV), who has claimed for years that IPPI card would be a law.
More information for those which speak German under http://www.freiflieger-magazin.at/new/index.php?id=ippicard and http://www.freiflieger-magazin.at
Yes, it's really interesting that they "found" a solution for a competition, but don't do anything to resolve the situation in Gerlitzen.
I've wrote this article, to inform everyone, and hoped the austrian aeroclub will react quickly. They don't... Either the local pilots, obviously they don't want to complain, because if this changes they have to pay too... this is a cheap solution for them. None of us would have complained about this situation if the pilot getting the fine, have gotten it for going into the water and not for not having a valid license. This would have put everyone on the same level, and not liberate the locals and penalize the foreigners.
Also it is interesting that none of the national federation have ever heard about this "law". We have informed a few of them (Hungary, Belgium, New Zealand, etc...) and all had the first reaction: this is bullshit, you probably missunderstood something... than a few phonecalls and they realized this is not bullshit.
@RocketDog
I think they changed their attitude due to recent happenings and found a possibility to change the situation. In order to find a solution they came across the passus, that foreign licenses are not explicitely allowed. I think there might be preassure of the camping bath owner and water rescue (i.e. through recent articles in the printed press) too.
However, I'm not yet a lawyer and can only imagine the reasons and discuss with you and I agree concerning the rudeness of some police (wo)men.
Greetings, Manuel
With 11024 hits already this page became the most visited content of the entire site...That tells about the interest of the acro community towards the issue!
Competitions do NOT have special rules. Also while flying competitions pilots must follow the law of that country. This time Acrojam found a solution. Good. But that is a solution for that comp only.
In my opinion the police(/the law) have acted in a really bad manner, and in my opinion we should not just watch this and do nothing.
Everytime history show a change happening fast has been because people are protesting/reacting. Doing nothing changes nothing.
Writing is doing something. Not much. But not nothing.
The Swedish federation had no idea until I told them yesterday. Now they can inform swedish pilots not to go to Austria for a while. If nobody wrote something about this, nobody would know anything.
Hi Manuel! One day, the police took one of my friend to the shore, checked his papers, he was kind, and smiling! Everything was ok! The police accepted his license. But few days after (the law has not changed during that time) the attitude of the authorities changed: There was no smile, there was punishment :) No alert, no nothing! So this is not about the law, this is attitude. Refers to law, is the easiest way to hide human factors. You have right, I have no doubt. But something changed one day to the next, and that was not the law. But anyway, it is not against you!
Well, it's law based (otherwise it wouldn't be written down). However, the reason only those two countries are allowed I don't know. Maybe there have been problems of differences in courses, standards, or they just had no time or material to allow them. Unfortunatelly I'm not a politician and therefore was not asked how to set up the law.
However, I hope it'll be solved soon.
Sorry, not personal of course, but not a low-based
@Heli2Heli
Ist true, but accept Germans, and Swiss is a personal decide. Isn't it?
@ Alex
I guess, the school will not permit landings by acro pilots, because it is PR even for them. Many customers stop by to watch acrobatics and some become later passengers for tandem. For sure: the boss of the school (the woman) does not have anything against acro pilots, neither for them. To her, we are just there.
However, in any other place the landing areas are private property, but offered to the public for landings like it is at Gerlitzen. I can't imagine any piece of country anywhere existing that is not buyable.
@RocketDog
Of course we, the pilots, like to fly in other countries as well. However, this is a law-based dessission, that needs not mirror peoples' will automatically. It's not a personal matter ;)
I wonder, that the Austrians do not want to fly in other countries? Only in Switzerland (or Germay)? Or fly abroad, becouse Europe accept them, but they could not accept others? Is this correct???
Sadly I just rearranged plans to go to garda instead and changed my tickets to Milan. I was looking forward to Gerlizten for most of the summer. I don't imagine we are a big bit of revenue for the town, but I guess whatever it was now goes to other places.
There is NO official landing ! the landing is owned by the yellow school and if the woman says no more acro pilots landing here, tell me where to land?? every landing is private there, it is unbelievable !! I have never seen this anywhere except gerlitzen, everything is private and nobody want to sahre anything otherwise they tell you they call the pollice !!! paragliding is like a big family excpet there....
Hello guys,
I am a local pilot and I really feel sorry for the latest happenings. I don't do Acro but I have a lot of respect for the pilots. The reactions from *some* officials and *some* others makes me sad and if this happened like stated below, it is unacceptable.
I like to emphasize that this is not the way the local people here are thinking. I think there are a lot of people (pilots and non pilots) who enjoy watching acro pilots fly. Still I think, pilots should stick to the local rules and land on the official landing place. This is valid for all pilots, local, non-local, acro, xc, whatever pilots, so Gerlitzen is not endangered as paragliding area, since it would affect all of us.
Let's see the recent events as a chance to sort out the defects in national and european free flight law. And I really hope, that the fines that have been collected, will be returned asap.
All the best.
Kacsa has a strong point with the absence of Interntional Paragliding licenses. IPPI is sort of doing it, but it's nearly 30 years old (made by hanggliders in the early 80es). If it would be refresh and upgraded it could be a very good system to recoginze.
Heli2Heli (Manuel) is also very right with the forest and the landings. If those trees would be gone, and we would have a landing open to the lake with a small boat or even a kajak, than 80% of the rescues could be done by us, and we remove a lot of load from the waterresue. In my opinion this seams to be the most effective solution.
Regarding the list of names: I've added a few more today, but the list is just getting too long. I'll not add more names from now, but if you feel you are effected, just place a comment with you name and opinion.
Thanks everyone for the lot of attention and comments. We had 4000 visitors on the site the first day, which is 4 time more than an average day. Hopefully those in charge to change this situation are also amongst the readers!
May be Red Bull, which is an Austrian company can help. None of the foreign pilots of the Red Bull Xalps had Austrian license to fly in the Austrian part of the race.
Hello Paal
This is not the fact!
Competitions have special regulations!
The Aero Club confirmed this!
A competition with international participation has special rules. I will post more detailed facts later when I am sitting I front of my computer again.
Please calm down and do not post things like this.
Read more details later.
Greatings Skok!
But at Gerlitzen they state that these rules are valid for the whole of Aurstria. And in my opinion FAI should put some pressure on this. ASAP. Because it WILL effect the whole of Aurstria very soon otherwise.
IPPI is in fact an convertion/translation between all international licenses (issued by NAC within FAI). It is a document that translate your level/license to an international system. The whole idea of the IPPI is for anyone to understand what is the level of visiting pilots to allow them to fly. It is ONLY valid if the pilots ALSO have an valid national license from his/hers own country/NAC that is a member organization of FAI.
So an IPPI license should be enough if that country allows that level of pilots to fly at that site. There can also be a higher demand of insurance. Third party as well as rescue and damaged.
Don't worry, AcroJam will definitely take place. This happens only at Gerlitzen now.
This is a scandal. And FAI should do something NOW, not later.
Because this is the conclusion after recent events at Gerlitzen.
I hope this is isolated to Gerlitzen, because if it's true, there can be NONE FAI cat2 events in Austria anymore as cat2 events is only allowed if all international (FAI pilots) are allowed to fly. XC as well as acro.
I'm really angry and dissapointed about this.
So I guess acrojam will be cancelled as FAI cat2 event now?
Since international pilots no longer can fly in Austria.
http://www.fai.org/events/events-calendar-and-results?id=34877&EventCale...
This is a scandal. And FAI should do something NOW, not later.
I had at least an idea to 'destress' the Schwimmbad and the water rescue team:
If the trees in front of the landing space were cut away (just some as wide as 2 gliders) pilots won't face the problem of less altitude and moreover the problem of rotors will disappear. A boat in front like the swiss do (pilots get points for being at the boat, so it's fair and everyone has to do that), and get the pilots out who went into the water.
This is more successful than taking a computer with you who is tracking your flightroute, water rescue has nothing to do anymore with us and the Schwimmbad is free too.
Now it's definitely a good time to bring this request to the Bundesforste (who are the owner of the lake). And some money for the boat is needed.
At least this would really help to destress the rescue-landing/throwing situation more easily than taking an expensive computer with you.
SATurn told the root of the problem (Fri, 2013/08/09 - 23:29).
"There are no european laws concerning paragliding."
It means, that paragliding licence is regulated by each country's law. The scope of this law is inside each country-border and checked by each country's authority.
Please do not mix FAI's IPPI card into the licence story, because FAI is just a sport competition organization. There is no national authority who normally has to accept an internal FAI document like IPPI card. This fact is acknowledged on the IPPI card by a sentence:
"Valid only with a current national licence or rating card"
.
Summarizing: the only long lasting solution consists of two steps:
1. All concerned countries has to make a common agreement, creating an international licence to be accepted in all member counties. (Similar to car driving licence)
2. Meanwhile all country's authorities has to be tolerant because we (paraglider pilots) do not want to break the law, we just not got a chance to fly legally all over Europe, even we are European citizens.
Yes I apologize I went a bit too far but my anger is huge because it is amazing chat's happening !!!
hopefully we met wonderfull people like itze, you and others from the candy camp !
My name is Roger, I am a Swiss paragliding Instructor. For all of you worrying now about Switzerland, there is no bilateral agreement with Germany and Austria on paragliding education, only an acceptance of their Licenses. So it is sure, there will be no spilover of this to Switzerland. For foreign Pilots who want to fly in Switzerland a valid IPPI Card Stage IV is O.K. and for cross country, you need a IPPI Stage V. Only Tandemflying and working as an Instructor are not allowed without Swiss Licence. In addition you need a valid third party liability insurance of min. 1.000.000CHF. No request for check fligths nor a flight book. According to a recent personal information from the SHV, if your country is not participating in IPPI (eq. Spain) a Swiss Instructor may fill out a certificate confirming your skills are IPPI 4 or above and this is also sufficient. Clear understandable that visiting pilots need to stick to the other country or local rules as airspace regulation or local flying rules eq. Mürren. In general it seems to be much easier for foreign pilots flying in Switzerland.
Some legal informations for you:
considering how much it could cost and about the police right:
The link below leads to the Austrian Aeronautical Law:
http://www.ris.bka.gv.at/GeltendeFassung.wxe?Abfrage=Bundesnormen&Gesetz...
of corse it is in German.
Somehow important for our Situation here now is XI. Teil Strafbestimmungen und einstweilige Zwangs- und Sicherheitsmaßnahmen Strafbestimmungen § 169. It is about the possible punishment if you disrespect this law.
It says, that who ever acts ageinst the decreets listet under §168 point 3, 3a or disrespects directives from flight savety personal or tryes to do so, but does not commit a crime is doing a so called administrational violation an can be fined up to 22.000,--€
Who ever does that during a comercial flight has to be fined at least 3.630,--€
further:
"Die Organe des öffentlichen Sicherheitsdienstes" the police has to support the administrative agency by setting actions that people hold on to that law or support by legal action.
Point (4) says:
(4) Liegt kein Verdacht auf eine vorsätzliche oder grob fahrlässige Begehung einer Verwaltungsübertretung vor, so ist ein Verfahren wegen einer Verwaltungsübertretung gegen eine Person nicht einzuleiten, wenn der Verdacht ausschließlich auf Grund einer von dieser Person erstatteten Meldung eines Ereignisses gemäß § 136 bekannt geworden ist.
in my words:
If there is no suspicion of any intended or very careless action and nobodey was hurt or in danger there is no reason to initiate a lawsuit if there was just a announcment of the incident because of a person or agency descriebed in §136
§171 says more or less:
they might block you from taking off if you don´t have the right documents or something like this, but if they do it has always to be in a comperativly way! The law say explicite! That they always have to ensure your personal values and respect your personal intersts in meaning of dignity!
The "Police" has to help the Austro Control ensuring this law if they were asked by the Austro control or the military.
about the question if germany and austria have a legal acceptance you can find this on the DHV homepage:
http://www.dhv.de/web/fileadmin/user_upload/monatsordner/2004-06/Ausbild...
yes they have!
And something like this will be found for swiss and austria aswell I am sure!
hope somebodey can use this information for themselfs!
greatings!
skok
I forgot to say: Thanks a lot to the FLYFORFUN forum to be allowed to use their article from http://old.paragleiter.com/
Dear Friends! How can we react?
For all of you who speak German (for non German speaking friends - see below) and have had to pay the 300€ here is a link that could help you.
http://old.paragleiter.com/Aktuelles.htm#Einspruch
The Article: Einspruchsmuster zum Strafbescheid "Landen in Guggental" http://old.paragleiter.com/LREG%20Einspruch%20Muster.doc
will give you an Idea how to act now.
For all my non German speaking friends:
This is an excemple that was whriten to the authority and it was succesful because of the law that says it is allowed to land werever you have to in case of emergency.
If you want me to fill it out for you and send it to the right authority I will do so. In this case please give me all your data and describe what exactly happened.
Please be patient with me when I am not so quick but I promise to do it as fast as I can.
By the way, you all have given them a deposit, not a fine! according to §37a Abs. 2 Z 1 VStG and because of this I can not whrite a case reference on it as long as you don´t have one.
BUT IT IS IMPORTANT TO ACT NOW
So, even if you dont have a case reference we will protest and wake up the authority to get into a conversation!
My best greatings and hopfully you have a good and still save flights werever you are!
Hi everyone
I hope now that the situation will be solved soon. I was there when everything started to happened, with the Korean pilot. I was first to argue with the police because He can't speak English. The whole problem started with the police. They were very impolite with him, like telling him to go to Korea to fly, waving with the handcuffs threatening him with jail. For not paying the fines immediately as Stephan Wirgler said I am agreed, but police commander was clear that they will confine him in the jail. When I told them that other pilots will go to, the women from the police said that they don't need foreigners and, that we are free to go, that is a little bit racistic. In the Gerlitzen expenses, the price for being impolite with the police is 150 €, i am wondering how much is the fee when they are impolite, and when they damage the equipement (grabing and tossing the equipement). Just to know, there is a court in Strazbur which overpower any national court, and this is not about flying rules but direct endangering of your life in the next flight.
Second, as Lupus already post, the text on the FAI web sait is changed two days ago. In the old one they say Austria recognize IPPI, and after we started to post the comments, they change the text, and now it's clear they do not. Does it sound like a fraud?
In the Balkan countries we recognized any European valid national card (even without IPPI), but of course I will recommend IPPI. It is also rule that the regular police can not fine the pilot without air-authorities, because they don’t know the law. It’s also the law that you can land anywhere when You are in danger, as Skok qout the Austrian law. Also here (I don't know about Austria) when somebody is in life threating situation in water, you must provide help if you are in the water with a boat, otherwise you will be panalissed. I saw one fisherman rowing just beside the Yungak, when he ask for help he just turn the head. Luckily the tourists with the pedal boat were there and bring him to the shore. Don't mention countless more similar situation.
I e-mail about the situation to FAI, and they said that they are aware of the situation and they will see what can be done. The whole purpose of FAI is to have one international license, not 100 licenses, imagine the same situation with driving licenses. If this escalates every country can ask for their national license, and we will go to the French, Spanish, Italian testing etc... First problem with the police was that they claim that FAI is only valid 2 years (Austrian law as they said). This shows lack of their knowledge, IPPI is valid once you get it together with valid national card. When Veso, and I think some French pilots ask for lawyer they didn't allow! I am wondering is this really in the law??
So there is breaking of the law here, but mostly by the police. Whole purpose of coming and practising over the lake is that we can land safely in the water in the critical situation, and come on, if You fly acro, sooner or latter the rescue parachute will be open. The pilots who are so sure in maneuvers will practice in Organia over the ground. The more the pilots the more the rescues.
I wish a lot of luck to Austrian acro pilots, because they are the only one which support us, especially Skok, and now Stephan Wirgler who also said the right thing about this situation.
Ivan
P.S only I am responsible for mentioning the word racism and for accusing because i was witness to the event and I will stand to my ground
Hi everyone!
I am so sad about this situation, but not primarily because of my seasoncard and rescue donation, but because of the attitude of each other.
All of us knows, that must reduce the number of paragliding incidents, but not like this! This is not a considered modern solution, it is a desperate and radical step, instead of solution. (which I think is incorrect)
Everywhere I read that the law requires that pilots must have a valid Austrian license, and that the rules are rules, and authorities/police doing only their job. Yes, it is true, but it's not quite that simple.
The Hungarian law makes no mention of the fact that Austrian license is valid for Hungary. But you can fly in Hungary. In my opinion, there’s no mention in the France law, what accept the Hungarian, or Austrian licenses to fly in France, but we can fly in France, etc etc. And then I guess the Austrian law does not include that the German and Swiss licenses are accepted. But no punishment for them.
Why? Because it is not controlled only the level of the law!
Is regulated also at the level of AGREEMENT between countries (associations), what based on communication, tolerance, and respect! Just as Andi_M sad: "Austria, Switzerland and Germany accept each others licenses, Because They know about each others standards in instruction / teaching ..." That is correct. The law does not make it possible to fly Germans in Austria, but they was agreed it. And that’s why the FAI exists! To make and control an all-round agreement between the member countries.
I think that Austria is also a party to FAI. Or FAI just submit Austria, without Austria’s consent?? I dont think so!!!
And if there was an agreement, as I think, it has been fired? Discontinued? What date with?
Why not give information us about this? Why wasn’n an alert board at the enty of kanzelbahn about the situation changed?
We always turn back to the level of law, but Austria several years ago made an agreement with FAI, and now everyone are silent about this. That’s why I found this situation incorrenct!
Dear Austrian pilots! We know all of this is not up to you, but if you can do anything to make this situation better, please do it! We would like to do this sport with he highest safety, just like You, or German, or Swiss pilots. And as you know, Gerlitzen is the most available palace for us to doing acro.
I hope to see you soon:
Csaba
Szilárd, we join to your list:
Csaba Virág,
Norbert Biri,
Lóránt Falucskai,
Katalin Juhász,
Dénes Kovács,
Zoltán Molnár,
Szilárd Berkei ,
Tamás Székely
Hi, my name is Stephan Wirgler, i am a Representive of the Austrian Aeroclubs.
Unfortunatly i am on Holiday right now, and not in the country.
Although I will find out what we can do. In my Opinion, it is not the right of the regular Police to fine pilots, they can only notice the name and Details. The only officals wich could fine are the so called "Zivile Luftfahrtbehörde"
Also all the issues i red were not following our laws, and i recommend not to pay fines immideatly!
Please send me the fines you had to pay to my email adress stephan.wirgler@gmail.com ( Make a Photo for example)
I am reading/writing this on my smartphone, thanks for your understanding.
Ladies and Gentleman who had to pay! Listen closly!
our law says, you will probably get your money back:
http://www.jusline.at/37a._VStG.html
For those of you who do not speak german I will try to summarize what it says:
The Authority can allow, specialy trained people to take a deposit from you that must not exceed the maximum punishment that you will face in the end.
Further more, they are allowed to take things that belong to you if you cannot pay the deposit, but their value must not exceed the maximum of the fine you will get for your crime.
my own comment:
In the background there is a lawsiut on its way and this defines how high your fine is in the end.
back to §37a VStG
after the lawsiut is shut down, or you are found guilty you get fined, the rest of the deposit or the complete amount will be given back. Also if after 12 month nothing happend in the case the deposit is gven back.
now I am on the way to find out how high the maximum fine can be to know how much they can take from you.
I will keep you informed!
Anotherone bites the dust!
Mr. Simon Weger landed in the shallow water today. The police was not interested in his documents at all. He got fined 300€ because of landing on the beach and because the Camping Bad owner pressd charges against him.
The legal reason why he was arrested was: §37a Abs. 2 Z 1 VStG (Absehen von Festnahme)
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/q81/s720x720/1098259_1020092...
From my point of view it was against the law, because you may land anywere to protect your own helth. The law says that you are alowed to land anywhere to protect yourself.
see here: http://www.jusline.at/10._Nichtbewilligungspflichtige_Au%C3%9Fenlandunge...
The text says:
the regulations from §9 LFG are not in charge if
a)for unpredictable, due to savety necessary or because of missing thrust or lift forced landings (emergency landings) and for your own savety necessary rescue jumps
b)for landings and take off in a rescue operation...
c)for outside landings of sailing planes, hang glider, paragliders aswell as free balloons
I would say! This should say everything!
let´s see how far we can get it!
greatings! skok
Hey guys, please don't do strong and offensive comment on anyone please! Everybody is responsible for his own comments, justACRO is not responsible for anything you write under your own name.
You can express your anger and upset, but be polite and don't hurt anyone. The situation is fragile, and crazy comments doesn't help at all!
Organized guys more properly and respect the grandparents to respect you and they, in turn ...
Oh c'mon Alex!
I was there, when Maggie (the school's boss) came to you after a friend of you had landed with the tandem. She said that you should not cross the road with only 1.5 m altitude, especially when police now is acting that hard. She tried to warn you!
The landing place you mentioned is a private landing by the club. They always say it is forbidden to land there - even to us Austrians. You should've said, that Edith (which is the president of the club) allowed it.
I know everyone is now pretty sad or even angry, but I hardly can't understand any similarity to war and we are for sure not nazis!
I appreciate you as flying buddy, but please do not do any nazi-comparrisons!
lexou777: Thanks for sharing you "experinces"....
I've updated the list of effected people!
I Was there with 12. French friends. We also had to leave After 8 days because the
Police was everywhere...
The yellow school at the landing place are like nazis, they HATE foreign people
And the girl is completly crazy and very insulting towards every acro pilot.
She was Lucky because we almost gave her à Huge smack into her face.
We see her Call the police when à foreign people Land into the field.
After That we Land in the field behind the road from the club. Nobody was there
But i Guy came and said ITS FORBIDEN i will Call the police... This country is completly crazy
Without any tolerance and peace. They only know police police police !!
I have Never seen That in my whole life. It was like world war 2 and we Where
The bastard to kill.... AMAZING
You Can add our names :
Alex Nelubow
Jeff Chipaux
Yassine ndoubela
Maxime renger
Maxime Neubrand
Guillaume simon
Yohann hoo
The others will give you their name
There are no "european laws" concerning paragliding.