acro or no acro

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hoddi's picture

hi markus, it sounds fantastic!like a dream :) But i got a new job and i´m working 12 hours a day for the next 2 months so i don´t have a lot of time these days :/ So i was thinking if we could meet up in may when i have finished my job? i could visit austria and we go flying and training there, and then we could go to Iceland, we are welcome to stay at my friends house in ísafjörður (who is a pilot to) and go flying around the vestfjords.
What do you think about that? or we could do it the other way...


killerloop212's picture


i help u with your safety training, u can stay at my moms private pension, wher eu can go flying and training, live around the corner of several schools with all inclusive.

on the other hand i visit island and we go flying there !
what do u think?

i fly next time home from greenland over island 12 th march so i look down or maybe u come same level :-)


hoddi's picture

It´s going ok, but we don´t get alot of flying this time of the year at háabrún because of alot of cold air steeming down the hills, some times we get no wind but the air time is only about 10min and it´s freezing, so i spend most of the time reading, asking, and learning every thing i can about the sport other then flying, but hopefully we can get some good flies late next month when the sun has come back(we only have the sun 5 months per year)to heat up the air. But in the summer háabrún is a wonderful take off place at 330 meters abowe sea level, in good wether condissions you can have houres of air time in the fresh breeze from the sea and the hot spots in the small wood willige below.
If the school idea would come to reality háabrún is a good place for the first high flies, and we also have other good take of places in the vestfjords, one place is over the sea, sutable for safety corses and first steps in acro. Check on the þhoto album at

killerloop212's picture

hej to island,

i checked on the map where u are home !

never been on this place. how is it going ?


hoddi's picture

Thank u markus u have made me think alot, and i think i´m getting to understand u. Are u talking about 3500dkr for the school? and what license will i get? cause i´m really interested to come to austria for the school.
how long doese it take to get the pp5 license? that´s what i need to fly acro leagaly right?

I did some calculations, the airplane ticket is around 2000dkr for both ways iceland/denmark-denmark/iceland, 500dkr for danmark/austria-austria/denmark, and then some money for a camping place and to eat, so the whole package whould be around 9000dkr...

I think im gona go for it this summer...

heilsa frá íslandi.

killerloop212's picture

an to iceland, i fly a lot in greenland and iceland.

a ticket to kopenahgen costs 150 euro th ered tickets, whcih is 1000 krones in far advance, a ticke tto austri acosts the same, air berlin charges u 250 krones.

so lets pick a school in austria. u name it

a ground school 1 week wher eu start flying or u jump in in a school where they do theyr 1000 feet above ground other 4 days with th efinal course for th elicense, whcih gives u also a good package for insurence ! will cost 3500 krones maybe?

u are welcome to visit .

hilsen fra thule


killerloop212's picture

to awnser cool´s questions: in AUSTRIA the AERO CLUB / AUSTRO CONTROL with help of th epolice is checking the pilots. i know it is a other question if it is performed as well, but it happend, to me as well.

in germany in orer of the LBA it will be checked.
in the JAA ( which is the EUROPEAN AVIATION AUTHORITY) of cours deals wich airliners, jets, heli, on and on but also has implemented in the ZLPV whcih means in th epage which referes to ratings which pilots need which experience to exersice what ever rating they optain, and now the paraglider is implemented as well ! so u can check it up !!

What is your true motivation beside this words?

the fact that it seems to demonstrade competend flying skill showing some suizide acroattitude. acro is nice but to learn , not to try out like a bycicle.i know now all the critics ................

but truly it is the point.

Courses and documents to earn money?
u can make a safety training, charge u fai rprice, example krippenstein. some info and th ecost of the cable train and a free donation for the lifeguard in the water.

document , why not get one, if it helps to cover with a insurance, why not. i flew easier with a austrian hanggliding license instead of no one in austria.

Or you're a compassionate person, affraid for health of the co pilots?

i like to share information, because i love to get told storys to get some out for me.

killerloop212's picture


the point is like it austria to find a interface . between insurance required and license required.
in iceland maybe a insurance does only care if u float of the coast to greenland and u start a SAR but i am watching a trial where a pilot did acro, crashed and damged some person badly.
insurance off because acro i sprohibited !

i wanted some reflections

and i know it is also a line, where does it start and where end. but for SURE not with watch and try.
love it.... i can tell from own experience flying even a pg is more than just trying. there are osme things u might get thought before it may happen to u.

it is easy made:

be covered by making a school official allowed to confirm u can do it. than th einsurcance would say ok we cover for this and this fee.

of cours eu might say more power to the school, well when u have anyway a pg license u fullfill anyway requirement to fly so demonstrade the skill. which is fast done isnt it.

and by the way, i remember as i was flying with andre bucher or christian amon or mike kung, u name them, at the beginning stage a lot of shit happend with trying, pg has change dlot due to this "experiences".
compare just the accident´s in the late 80´s and beginning of 90´´s.

in austria, krippenstein, zillertal, stubai, all the times accidents due to just saw and try. no many where aware of updrafst due to fronts, now totaly basic understanding, earlier people started in leetehermals thinking main wind come sup. .... peng.
now in the first steps u learn to unlock this kind of trap by school. so without scholl u might have the skill to get airborne, butnot the skill to do it safe. well now u might say for what cost when i can learn it, well a serious school doesnt take that much for a license in comparison what u get.

when u fly "black" and meet the right person, u make a check flight, fee is about 120 euro and u have your license havent u. without license in austria hell is loose if a helicopter is needed.

now th ewhole thing has shiftet, good level in air, new acro style is creating now the stuff where it is grey zone, at least for the pg.

and last but not least, i am a enthusiasted paraglider, was flying years without license, was too young this time, no idea of insurance, so i walked the way to talk.
it is just to be aware because i know insurance companies, final proof i watch a trial where this came up.
ill let u guys know what the outcome was.

p.s. i did wit amon a flight with the red devil ( 100 square meters ) with 4 add. people form a mountain, so i share the same needles in the ass like u and i am all but not holy. just situation aware :-)

hoddi's picture

Ok, so you are not on killerloops site?

cool's picture

Love it, so sorry, but I wrote for Killeloop...

hoddi's picture

Some people may need school to learn paragliding and others not, so i think people should decide for them self if they need help(and hopefully they can afford it) if they do they can go to a school or take some courses and all is good with that, but this was my case...
We don´t have a paragliding school in iceland and no teams or clubs, and my desire to learn paragliding was extreemly strong, i wanted to go to school to learn quicly and fly around some beutyful foreign countries, but could not afford it. The expense of a airplane ticket from that island is huge + the expense of the school and some money to eat and stuff like that, it´s alot of money, around 150.000-200.000kr = 2-3.000$
So i began to think if i really needed school to learn, i decided to start on my owne by reading and watching videos and watching people flying with leg cams, just anything that could teatch me. Believe me i had many houres, many days and many weeks of watching and learnig, before i even had my glider, so finally when i had the money and bought the glider i went to the field in compleatly calm weather and tried to figure out all the lines they called "risers" and "brakes" and all that stuff, it was complicated, after a lot of houres i gave up and whent home, i started to think alot and read more and more till i found out how to rise the glider. So i went again to the field and i tried, i took the brakes and the risers in my hands and looked at it, it looked like the photo, like it could work, so i took one step back leened forward and ran, and it happend, the glider went up abowe me for maby 1-2sec and all to one side cause i was´nt centered, but i did it again and again all the day. The day after i had learned how to hold the glider for longer time, so i kept on till i found the confidece to fly my first maby 2meter high an 10meter long flight and it felt wonderful, success!! and then i went again and again and then higer and higer, got more confident and to day im flying like any other pilot with no accidental history.

My motto in life is: Do what you wanna do no matter how, but with care.

Safety and discipline in first place.
and a STRONG decire to learn it is all you need.

But of course i would suggest people to take some courses or school if they got the money for it, but if you really wanna fly but can´t afford it, don´t give up, find your way to make it happen, because flying a paraglider is the most wanderful thing ever with or without some paralicens.

cool's picture

Your proposal sound pretty bad;
Whom would you give the right to control pilots? Who would decide who is allowed to fly and do maneuvers?

Paragliding schools? Courses?

Local clubs?

More power to the locals?

What is your true motivation beside this words?

Courses and documents to earn money?

Or you're a compassionate person, affraid for health of the co pilots?

hoddi's picture

in iceland we don´t have licens to fly a paraglider, i never went to any kind of paragliding scool or training, i just read and watched videos, had few houres of ground handling, went to the hill and took my first short fly, i think paragliding is just to easy to have it licensed, if you practise safely and you don´t rush of, and you are shure about what you are doing, it´s safe.
I have been flying for two years now and never had any accidents, but from the begining i´we wanted to fly acro and now after two years of flying around and getting the feel of paragliding im ready to start to practise acro flying.
i think everyone can fly a paraglider safely with out a licensed and expensive teatcher, just with a litle bit of thinking.
So i do not agree with you killerloop212...

akira's picture

You might be right ... still I doubt more rules, licences, etc will be a progress in terms of safety for the pilots. In Germany, you need a licence to fly, in France not. I dont think there are much more accidents in France. And Acro is forbidden in germany ... but people do it.

killerloop212's picture

and about esthetics: i think a round maneuvre is esthetic, but not a some how of 50/50 controll not controll maneuvre where the outcome is not just up to the one below !

killerloop212's picture

i am to laziiiii to review a spelling check

:-) intep..late t.e missing wo.ds

killerloop212's picture


well i guess i dont need to explain when and what acro by definitin is. i think for my self and i see it also in my daily job as pilot needed to perform some certain of maneuvers, where i could not find out it is already acro unless i would take a look at the instrument.

the same is of course also on flying. BUT

i dont agree with the term of defining it just with angles because flying a paraglider neraly stall speed in a approach is also kinf of aerobatic but not ang out to the acrobatic !

but to com eback to the point, in aviation is the line very thin when it comes form the legal to illegal, here in paragliding it is a very thin line.

how often did we go flying o full moon, or flying above a ceiling, or spinning down like hell with nearly 90 degree flapping out to the vertival ?
everybody nearly did, but as more andmore people start to do acro flying also in this kind of aviation the split will come where it once will say this is acro and nit flying so a different graduation might be needed !
look at aviation, everything adobted sooner or later tha standard procedure
we startet in aviation with flying a wooden plane once a while through clouds , now ifr 12 ours in clouds.

the conflict comes when gliders and paragliders, who get compared to other kind of flying or transportation accessed to aviation, can easy interfer with this kind of stric tlicensed aviation routine .
the same what leraned a paraglider in weather and clouds and how to keep distance because beenig in a certain airspace requires awarnes, because safety is based on this included the insurance.
now th enext steop is this aerobatic thing.

i live at a mountain where each weekend is safety training, i was on it already with the father of acro, andre bucher, wher eit was still ocasional. now all and everywhwere aerobatic is the talk. ther eis too much iwanabees and no real awareness what to need , what to have and what to do before do ing kind of this stuff.

and as i just wanted to make aware it is just calling it up in th emind if it comes to the point, jmpnig with a glider from a bridge, out from a helicopter or doing acro is giving the whole paragliding community the lead of it is the normal way, but it isnt.
even jus tin a paraglider or hangllider aviation routine applies and as well as aerodynamics and its friend, physik. which is well underestimated.
i recall the first safety trainings where people crashed on lakes, killed, stalled and released brakes to early . all this happend because of not beeing aware whar really apllies.

so i was asking acro or no acro in reference should ther ebe a kind of acro licensed course, with a acro licensed instructor.

well i would say it is time to introduce it !

p.s. spelling mistages due to hypoxia, spartial disorientation :-)
fly safe

LodeDePaepe's picture

Hi Killerloop,

Apparently, it was not clear to me what exactly was the point you wanted to make with your initial post.
I fully agree with the part that is related to awareness of the responsability related to perform 'forbidden' manoeuvres.
It is indeed the case that insurance companies limit their financial involvement as much as possible, not only when dangerous manoeuvres are involved, but also when not having a license when needed for that site, or not wearing correct clothing (helmet, shoes,...), the weather conditions (e.g. flying in fog) and so on...
We had a comparable topic on a Belgium paragliding forum some time ago, and the result of that was pretty clear and confronting: If you you want to be sure to get any back-up from your insurance company, only fly in perfect conditions, with perfect gear and don't take any risks. This limits the fun considerably, but is the hard reality...
I don not agree with your definition of acro, but I don't think that is of any importance here, as that is merely a discussion about aesthetics.
To be continued, I guess ;)

killerloop212's picture

hi lowie,

i have spoken it because i observe exactly this kind of trouble which is sorted out by a pilot i know who had this incident/accident !

u know for sure what it means as long everybody sleeps no one will watch !

but what if someone wakes up ? well too bad luck for the guy who gets hit !

the point is that nowbody is aware that a.e. no insurence covers this, but the insurance gets aware of what to not cover or how to decline your coverige

LodeDePaepe's picture

Thank God that we're not all former airforce acro pilots ;)

killerloop212's picture

hallo all,

to make it clear because all talk about acro like nerds who cant live without having it in the mouth !
acro is nice, when it is a round maneuver !

if somebody tries to tell me a mc twist is acro or some how a falling half tumbling maneuvre is acro than i need to say this is absolutely not acro just a try to put himself in the center. me as a former acro pilot in the air force i think ther eis a wrong lead in this especial in paragliding !